Slurm
Nightwalker
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Post by Slurm on Oct 21, 2009 8:41:45 GMT -5
Maybe im MAD, and I know some people hate the grind, but I don't think it's as big of a deal as some have made it out to be. I posted on the Multiplaying site, but I figured I'd share here to since some may not check it: shadowwar.wordpress.com/2009/10/20/a-request/ If you have time to read and respond in his comments section, please let me know your opinions, and feel free to disagree with my comments there!
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Post by Takzenen on Oct 21, 2009 10:52:33 GMT -5
I agree 110% with what he said. He hit the nail on the head there.
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Slurm
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Post by Slurm on Oct 21, 2009 11:29:26 GMT -5
Really? You think there needs to be an xp boost and we need addons?
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Qhoren
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Post by Qhoren on Oct 21, 2009 11:54:55 GMT -5
I read somewhere some time ago that the Korean MMOs that have come out lately have been rehashes of older MMOs with evolutionary changes rather than revolutionary changes. Don't ask me to look that quote up, I'm way too lazy. I think that the grind in Aion supports that statement, especially given many people's reactions when you mention the grind in Aion, for both leveling and crafting. They say, "It's not as bad as (Everquest, Everquest II, Final Fantasy, whatever other MMO you want to insert here."
The fact that it isn't as bad couldn't matter less to me. The fact that there is a lengthy and necessary grind related to doing anything worthwhile in this game, reminiscent of those old MMOs, is disappointing to me. There is no inherent challenge in spending mindless hours killing random mobs. It's an antiquated mechanic that should have been replaced with more engaging game play years ago.
I appreciate some of the difficulty they've built into Aion. I like the fact that making bad pulls quickly results in a wipe and that not paying attention to what you are doing can get you a quick trip back to where you are bound. The only thing difficult about the grind is wanting to keep doing it.
That being said, I don't think they should trivialize the leveling process. This is, after all, an mmoRPG. However, smoothing the leveling curve and taking out the grindy parts will only make the game stronger.
Edit: I don't care about the addons, but they do need to smooth out the UI. It drives me nuts when I can't heal myself because I'm targetting a mob that is out of range so I can't auto-self cast a heal that would work at any other time.
Also, I don't think the grind will drive away casual players. I think the disparity in levels in a PVP game will do that, which is only made worse by the grind. Casuals fall farther behind with a bigger grind, which means they face higher level, often insurmountably high, PVP foes.
And don't give me that crap about "easy mode." It's a PVP game. If you are a skilled player, you should welcome the more level playing field that easier levels would provide, especially since there will still be differences due to gear.
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Slurm
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Post by Slurm on Oct 21, 2009 12:08:08 GMT -5
while I agree that the curve should be smoothed a bit, I really can't see another way to make leveling a more "satisfying" process. Like I commented on his post, you can make mobs really tough to kill and worth more XP, but it's just going about the same process in a different direction. If anything, I think Aions mobs are tougher to kill than in most MMO's, which goes along with what you said about bad pulls. (Heck, if I get two mobs on me it can be a challenge depending on the level.) The other end of the spectrum would be a game like Ultima Online, where you have no levels, just skills.... which you have to grind to advance. I just think having some form of grind is inherit to any MMO. From the ashes of grinding rises a sense of accomplichment. I do wish there was a better class advancement system in MMO's (which is why I wrote this: www.multiplaying.net/2009/10/21/wanted-final-fantasy-tactics-mmo/ ). I think something like that could alleviate some boredom and cause more determination for people to level if done properly. Ultimately, I wont disagree that it's a grind, but I don't really mind it.
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Zeli
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Post by Zeli on Oct 21, 2009 12:17:38 GMT -5
i commented
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Qhoren
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Post by Qhoren on Oct 21, 2009 12:26:04 GMT -5
There are those who will roll their eyes when I post this. They can sod off.
The other end of the spectrum isn't a game like UO where you grind to raise skills, it's a game like Shadowbane in which you could have a max level character in 3 days of afk groups. There was virtually no grind in that game, even though the only way to level was grind mobs, because it was so quick and filled with PVP.
The sense of accomplishment didn't come from getting a new shiny or getting that next level, it came from crushing your enemies. It came from destroying their cities. It came from pushing them out of zones. It came from the recognition that one received in game and on the forums when they proved themselves.
It's of note that while there were levels in SB, they really only affected the number of points you had for stats and skills, and nothing else. There was no increased chance to miss or resist, and there were no crits of any kind.
The inclusion of level-based mechanics with a steep grind requirement, by today's standards, is not beneficial to a game that many play for PVP.
Edit: And I agree. It's an mmoRPG, thus there will be some kind of grind or leveling curve. I just don't think it should be this boring. Even adjusting the questing so that you aren't ever required to just kill mobs for exp would go a long way towards mitigating the boredom.
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Slurm
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Post by Slurm on Oct 21, 2009 12:41:38 GMT -5
Oh I'll agree that there should be more quests. I even said something last night about wishing I had more. Hopefully as time goes on, more content will be added (which would make alting a bit more feasable). And I'm not here to say ,"oh you shouldn't be bored" if you're bored with it, then you're bored with it, and that sucks, but I'm not feeling that myself, and I disagree with those that seem to think that this is unorthodox. I never got to play Shadowbane, but I heard good things. I do wonder how Darkfall compares to that. No levels, just skills and loot....tons of PvP....seems to breed D-bags though.
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Qhoren
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Post by Qhoren on Oct 21, 2009 12:48:41 GMT -5
The beauty of FFA PVP games is that d-bags don't get to hide. What do you do when that guy runs up and starts harvesting the node you were clearing the last mob to get to? Wax him. Too bad we can't do that.
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Slurm
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Post by Slurm on Oct 21, 2009 12:55:07 GMT -5
yeah, but D-baggage in FFA pvp mmo's (holy acronyms batman) can sometimes make playing the game more unpleasant than any amount of grinding hehe but there comes personal preference again
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Zeli
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Post by Zeli on Oct 21, 2009 13:02:09 GMT -5
i hope they offer more quests for those of you that want them, but I'd like an alternative. I'd like some dungeons (or whatever) to crawl through with my friends. Example: Krall. I loved it, I wish it lasted for more levels or I wish there was a 22-26 dungeon to go to.
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Maeve
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Post by Maeve on Oct 21, 2009 13:21:23 GMT -5
That's my problem and I had actually considered writing about it for the blog, but didn't want to sound too whiny. I don't mind that there is a grind option. What I don't like is that seems to be the only option at 27. My quest log is down to like 4 quests. 4! You have no idea what that means for someone like me who was forever having to abandon unfinished quests to make room for new ones.
At 27, I can go to the Abyss and do repeatable quests. I can PvP, but at 27, that's really only fun if you have a group because you are going to get rolled solo at that level. What do I do to level? I'm told I need to grind Kaiden Mines and the NTC instance as much as possible with the lockout. Ok. That's fine. But I don't like not having another zone to explore. It's not so much not having quests that I dislike. It's the lack of a new place to explore, lack of content if you will. I'd be happy with a few other instances to run, something, anything else.
It didn't feel like a terrible grind to me until 27. Combine that with the massive crafting grind, and I'm running short on things to keep me occupied. It does remind me of CoH. You hit the wall at around the same level. But at least there were other zones to explore, even if the missions and task forces were just the same old thing with different mobs.
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Post by Takzenen on Oct 21, 2009 13:26:54 GMT -5
Really? You think there needs to be an xp boost and we need addons? The addons thing I'm not really concerned about, only probably that I have with addons are the ones that do some of the playing for the player. I have a problem with public damage/healing meters too, I've seen them split too many guilds. It's kinda pathetic, but that's the nature of some players. As far as a flat XP boost? No. The XP rewarded is fine. However the early 20s are absolutely brutal as most of the grinding is done solo, that's boring, I play this game to be entertained, not solo grind til my eyes bleed. That being said, I wouldn't mind a group XP bonus, say something like each member in the group gives a 5% bonus?
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Slurm
Nightwalker
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Post by Slurm on Oct 21, 2009 13:35:41 GMT -5
Zeli Yeah, I was just thinking the other day about the instanced dungeons in DAoC...I wish Aion had them so we could do more level approriate grouping. Maeve the site is there to express what your feelings are about games, I say go for it. The stuff you've written in the past has been great. ;D @tak ooh, I like the group XP bonus idea.
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Post by Takzenen on Oct 21, 2009 13:48:26 GMT -5
Zel, when you guys get into 36+ you're going to be grouping pretty much nonstop to 50, in the end I think you all will enjoy the later levels as we'll all be able to spend more time in a group just killing together. I would love to have a full Ataraxia farm group in KHQ. @slurms, you could make it so that there's an AP boost as well, but cap it to party only. For instance, don't give a 5% increase to everyone in the alliance, just cap it at 30% total rewarded per person.
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