The Holy Trinity?

[trapsinger]

Pazz posted this in another thread:

"...and the way they rid the game of the "Holy Trinity" of class/group compilations was pretty cunning."

And rather than hijack that thread, I thought I'd start a new one, because i think this is an interesting thing to discuss.

Indeed there are no classes that are designed to be healers specifically, nor any classes designed to be tanks. However I was reading about the stats in GW2, and there is a stat that does nothing but improve healing, one that does nothing but improve buffs, one that does nothing but increase mitigation, and another that does nothing but improve health. With the guild wars stats designed the way they are, I expect that even though the classes themselves don't define group roles, that by gearing and speccing your character you will be choosing a group role for yourself. It sounds like it would be easy to switch that role with very little effort, but it doesn't sound to me like they've completely removed the concept of those roles from the game.

Further if you look at the abilities available to different classes, and how they work, it appears that most classes get one good self heal ability for their heal slot, and one that helps the group. then when you go into the utility skills, it seems like for any given skill slot you have to choose either a skill that benefits your group, or one that helps your damage output. So again, you would have to choose your group role before you enter combat. There are some classes where they can have a healing ability attached to one of their weapon skills, which means they could swap it out on the fly in combat, but that's not all the classes, so if they are good enough to count as real healing, doesn't that put us back into the mold of some classes can heal, and others can't?

All that being said, I'm still quite looking forward to the game, and their class design feels good to me, I just don't think it's quite as innovative as they claim. After reading all that information on the game, it seems to me that the only way they could maintain the absence of holy trinity roles in their game, would be to make certain that all their itemization has stats for more than one role, and to begin including more abilities that have both an offensive and supportive function.

References:

Stats and how they work: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attributes

Skill lists by class (at bottom of page): wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skill

Discussion point: Do think you think their design actually removes group roles? Or do you think they can't pull it off?

PS: Yes, I'm bored out of my teeth waiting for my laptop to arrive, does it show?

[Vejuz]

A-net has always been pretty clear that the "holy trinity" of GW2 is not Tank, Healer and Damage but Control, Support and Damage.

Controllers would be like Hammer warriors - they have stuns and knockdowns/backs and is general help keep the mob shut down....but they can only do this for so long before their cool downs prevent them from continuing. GW2 doesn't have a traditional aggro system either, so everyone ends up taking turns being in the mobs sights - dodging and defensive skills are for everyone.

Support gives buffs and heals, it's pretty straightforward except that Anet has been very clear that healing is a delay mechanic - with the exception of 6 slot skills, healing doesn't actually heal that much, and Anet has said this is by design. Everyone needs to be putting out damage.

But the real reason that the holy trinity is dead is not that the roles it has don't exist, but that you don't need all of them to succeed. You can swing having any combination of Control, Healing or Damage because all professions have abilities that allow you to avoid or mitigate damage and heal and have a potentially successful group. This is the real death of the holy trinity - not that these game play styles no longer exist, but that they are no longer required.

Also keep in mind that with the trait system you can spec two lines fully with a little bit left over. Since only 1 line is ever geared towards Control or Healing, every character is a working hybrid. The only thing you can fully specialize in to exclusion to all else is damage, and even then, it's usually different types or methods of damage.

[Slurm]

Imma be a Ranger or a Necro.

[trapsinger]

I'm gonna be a Ranger or a Guardian most likely. I like the aesthetics of the ranger, but based on my reading i think i will prefer the mechanics of the guardian. we'll see how it plays out.

[Vejuz]

It's between Mesmer and Elementalist for me. It all comes down to how they play, so I wont know which I'll settle on until I play them.

[Pazzolupo]

Well of course we'll have people who choose to fill certain roles. That's how people define their playstyle! As such we'll enhance whatever stats do this more effectively. That being said, what they refer to is not that people will still fill tanky type roles, but the ability to manage the aggro for an entire group or raid single handed. There are no taunt or "aggro-grabber" abilities as such in GW2. That means controlling the mobs completely is gone. As such only having one class able to mitigate all the damage is less effective. They simple spread out the roles to everyone and let everyone be "good enough" at surviving as long as you're using your brain. No more DPS'ing while watching Netflix. (I'm looking at you, Sazza.)

I will use a quote referenced from Mass Info for the Uninitiated.

Aggro/AI –

Aggro will take into account quite a few factors:

Simple creatures use a system based on proximity, how much damage is being done to them, how much damage they're doing, health of the player, armor, etc. More complex creatures will use all of the above among other things such as using specific skills, attacking the player that is the furthest away from them, focus on players wearing medium or light armor and try to chase them. Some creatures might run away from you, swap weapons to have entirely new skills, dodge your attacks, use specific skills on players at specific times, etc. Different armies will also have their own systems that are based on different themes, skills, and AI.

Or, another way to put it:

Trinity System Role Focus:
HHHHHHHH Healing
TTTTTTTT Tanking
DDDDDDDD Damage

GW2 (originally GW1) Role Focus:
DDDTTHH
TTTDDHH
HHHTTDD

(Strictly for demonstration purposes)



I'm kind of between Warrior, Ranger, Necro, Mesmer, Elementalist, Engineer or Thief. Also, Guardian. Basically I have no intention to to ever hit level cap apparently.

I will just wing it on the moment of character creation. I'm sure it will be fine.

[pandalishus]

Not to be TOO skeptical, but I'll believe it when I see it. Something tells me innate class mechanics will result in a situation where "on paper" these roles aren't needed, but that for serious endgame content, if you don't have classes x, y & z in armor/spec combos a, b & c, it will be much harder. Whether MMOs will ever be able to get away from that is hard to say

[Pazzolupo]

I completely agree, but Anet has already said they're goal was essentially not to have things that artificially increase difficulty of content like enrage timers. I don't know how successful they will be but I've always kinda thought the enrage timers were cop outs in the first place.

[Grok]

Mar 3, 2012 0:20:20 GMT -5 pandalishus said:

Not to be TOO skeptical, but I'll believe it when I see it. Something tells me innate class mechanics will results in a certain where "on paper" these roles aren't needed, but that for serious endgame content, if you don't have classes x, y & z in armor/spec combos a, b & c, it will be much harder. Whether MMOs will ever be able to get away from that is hard to say

I think it's impossible to get away from FOTM builds and rotating balance/nerfs. That's a result of player mind-set as much as design. But as long as I'm not made to buy into it, I'll be happy.

[Pazzolupo]

Normal Class system (Nothing wrong with it, I love being a healer):





Guild Wars 2 version:

[pandalishus]

That'll be way cool if they pull it off. The more I hear about this, the more I think I'll give it a try. SWTOR may wind up falling by the wayside. Just don't think I can do two MMOs and Diablo III.