Qhoren
Troll Hunter
Warrior SWTOR Reliant
Posts: 1,471
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Post by Qhoren on Feb 18, 2012 15:21:08 GMT -5
One of the best parts about the BH story is that sometimes the LS choices are more interesting than the DS choices.
If you've read the Republic Commando books, it's like playing Kal Skirata as a character.
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Pazzolupo
Grimweird
It's not what you did. It's what you did before what you did.
Posts: 1,147
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Post by Pazzolupo on Feb 18, 2012 17:51:38 GMT -5
You can't compare the construction of a Light Side Jedi story to the construction of a Light Side Bounty Hunter. The Consular is more or less the Obi Wan Kenobi type story. You know that he will let the bad guys go to try to redeem them. Just like the LS choices reflect. Always catch and release.
As both you and Qhoryn have said, LS choices on the BH are more action-y. But that class story is based on the idea of Jango and Boba Fett. They don't let anyone go if they are any threat whatsoever. They can't afford to...literally.
That being said, I definitely agree that the LS story on Consular probably could have been handled a bit differently. It doesn't change the underlying constant that LS Republic classes will always lead the predictable "let them live" theme. Ask Zand'orleen about that in his story. All I heard for days was anger on how a certain situation played out in the end.
I just finished the Imperial Insurance Agent's story as completely neutral. I obviously had to pick both sides for this and that was probably one of the most intersting stories I've experienced in a long time. Both the LS and DS options had weight to them. My character evolved from a bloodthirsty puppet to an independent operative that learned to do things the right way. Then again this class story is closer to a blend of Jack Bauer, James Bond and a smidge of Indiana Jones.
Anyway you know what character inspired the stories before you start. The choices within follow those inspirations whether you like it or not. I just find it strange to continuously mash a certain option when it's not producing any enjoyment. Neutral gear is on it's way in so don't try to act like it's a min maxing thing. Is there a taboo because of this arbitrary number system they attributed? Maybe I'm more invested in my characters story than his gear choices....but I am far from bored of this game, and I have six more playthroughs before I start worrying about "having nothing to do". Numbers be damned! I'm going to develop my character with choices that they would make in the moment. Not mash a certain button to make sure I get that one helm from that one dude with ten points more of endurance.
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Post by pandalishus on Feb 19, 2012 10:09:00 GMT -5
I think that misses my point. I knew I would go full LS when I rolled Consular, but that doesn't mean I should have had to go DS for "epic" story results. After all, Obi-Wan was pretty much a paragon of virtue, and he "created" Vader. Can't get much more epic than that. It's not that LS is necessarily dull (though DS certainly injects a certain je ne sais quoi), but that the story writing for Consular just doesn't strike me as particularly good. You sort of have to go DS to make it interesting. Sure, it has some solid twists and turns, but the story leading up to the twist gets tired. So far, playing both Trooper and BH, it's been clear that I have a good story, regardless of the LS/DS choices. JK was shaping up that way as well. Consular, well... it just felt forced (pun?). It felt like things to should matter to me because they mattered to my master and the Council, not because they mattered to me. I think part of it was resolving the issue with my master on Coruscant. The tension just wasn't there for very long. By level 16, the best source of angst ("what do I do to save my master?") is gone, and I'm off rinsing and repeating about other Masters I just don't care about. Sure, Parakanas winds up being a nice resolution, but I've just had to endure too much in meantime. The arc that tied the chapters together was just sort of weak. I think another piece is the companion. That's where the story becomes personal. You hear how bad your companion has been screwed, and because your companion is helping you kill the baddies, you start to empathize and their fight becomes your fight. Fess, as awesome as he is, never connects because you have to read what he's saying. That takes away from it. But even then, the personal element to the story is gone by level 16. That's just bad writing, imho. Act 2 is much more epic, but that's because you feel like the fate of the war depends on you, but you have 5 NPCs who all distrust you, and you have work for their confidence. Again, it's personal. In Act 3, it's back to saving the galaxy, but it feels like you're saving someone else's galaxy, not your own. So again, the Consular twists are good enough to make it an interesting story, but the "it's personal" element is missing. And before you say it shouldn't be personal for LS Jedi, it could still be personal and LS options push you to find a way to make it less so. By 50, you want to kill the bad guy sooooo bad, that DS choice is almost impossible to ignore, but you do it anyway, because, by God, the Light Side guides your path. No such thing for me. THAT would have been epic, if at every turn I wanted to kill the guy, but I took the high road because I'm Light Side. There's how you make a great story. And no, I didn't roll LS for the stats (there aren't any, anyway). I just always go pure good first. PS regarding "you know what character inspired the stories before you start," you're 100% right: Obi-Wan. And that Consular story was NOT worthy of Obi-Wan...
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Pazzolupo
Grimweird
It's not what you did. It's what you did before what you did.
Posts: 1,147
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Post by Pazzolupo on Feb 19, 2012 19:09:16 GMT -5
I don't know how familiar you are with the intesity of the bond between master and padawan, and likewise to the Jedi Council. The bond between a master and their padawan is unmatched in the Jedi Order. It is literally the deepest connection they have ever and will ever make with another living being. So, to say that you wouldn't care about things your master felt were important is silly.
An extension of this connection is reflected in their care for all Jedi. Masters, padawans, initiates, whatever you want to rank them were just as important to Consulars. When there are other Jedi Masters that are afflicted, a Consular would feel a stab of anguish every time they were reminded of it. They were more or less the..internal affairs/political machines of the Jedi Order. Whereas Jedi Knights were the external forces unless they were otherwise spread thin.
What is this....I don't even...How? Is there some other galaxy we were taking our story points from?
If by this you mean giving the [Kill] option throughout the chapters, it would be a more thrilling story element I agree wholeheartedly...but what about those who take it at the first chance? Does the story continue? Do they just get 20 hours of story instead of 100+? This is impossible logistically in a game...ANY game driven by story.
I disagree, but that's probably because I felt like Obi-Wan turned dark. Though, even in the movies Obi-Wan purposely sacrificed himself rather than kill Darth Vader. This is despite Obi-Wan being a well known weaponmaster, and having defeated countless other Sith. Why? Because he wanted to distract Vader from Luke, and give Luke the chance to turn him back to the Light Side. This is exactly what the Consular story is. Protecting other Jedi, and attempting to save lives, even if that means sacrificing your own.
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Post by pandalishus on Feb 19, 2012 20:08:07 GMT -5
Sorry in advance for the wall of text. PhD work will do that to ya. No, not silly at all. It's a story. They have to sell it. There was no parenthetical "by the way, you better care about all this because it matters to your master." There was no moment of story-telling where my character fell on the ground because Master what's-her-name was back on Coruscant writhing in agony. She goes and tries to kill a doctor, and how does my character react? Go back and play that story through. It barely registers in the dialogue or voice acting. Something like "I'll be there in a minute." It's up to BW to sell the story, not for me to bring a considerable knowledge of SW lore to the table. Put it this way: if someone knew nothing about SW other than what they saw in Episode I 3-D last week, would they get the bond? I don't think so (at least not without playing another story). BW has to make that clear somehow, and relying on the player's sense of lore is a cop out. EDIT: And she's not your Master anyway. At least not for more than a few hours. If they'd changed the story so that this was my master from when I was a youngling, it might have worked. As it is, you're transferred to Tython and then "here's your new master." It's almost as if they go out of their way to BREAK that bond we've heard so much about. Again, they have to sell the story. If the only way it's "my" galaxy is because my character happens to inhabit it, then that's just poor story-telling. "You have to care because you live and work here." Um, no, I don't. Where's the personal connection that every other class I've played had? BW was aiming for an "OMG, I just literally saved the freakin' galaxy" story, and missed the point that, for most players, just avenging your Dad is good enough. Again, there's nothing personal to the story unless I add it in. It's not there to begin with. The personal connection is between my Master and Parkanas, or the Jedi Council and the Empire. Act 2 is where they show a bit more what it can be like. I have people saying "I don't trust you." That gives it a good flavor. But it's over too fast. Act 2 was the only one I was sad to see end. With 1 & 3, it was nice to have it over and done with. Class quest amounts to about three hours of dialogue total. You could play through just the class quest in 5-6 hours total (given enough XP to keep you leveled, etc). They could definitely have branching options. But that's not the point. The point is that those who play Consular strong LS get an inferior story. Shouldn't be that way imho. Whether you want to kill or not, the story could have been far stronger for LS players. My experience with both Trooper and BH tells me BW knows how to do it. No idea why they didn't for Consular. Right. Of course, he didn't turn dark (didn't even ever come close (killing != dark side)), but that's how you see it, so it works better for you. The reality per canon, however, is that while Obi-Wan dealt with some angst, Qui-Gon was FAR closer to turning "dark" than Obi-Wan, because he went against the Council, etc, etc, etc (though I'd say he was more Grey in reality). Obi-Wan was straight-up LS, with a hard choice or two in Lava Land. (Granted, GL has been messing around with stuff in the prequels, but he also added Jar-Jar, so I tend to think of any decisions in the prequels as ill-advised at best.) I think you've misread Obi-Wan in a pretty significant way, which might explain why the Consular seems to be a better to match to Obi-Wan for you. (And it could be the difference between me having nothing but Ep 4-6 for 20 years, and pretty much memorizing them, versus those who think EP 1-3 actually add to the story). There was no "rather than kill Vader." Obi-Wan was going to die, and he knew it. He sacrificed only because it wouldn't kill him (Force ghost and all), and Luke & Co could get away to do what they do. Obi-Wan was an amazing story. He was an eager padawan who, when tested as a master, failed miserably and opened the way for one of the greatest Sith lords to have existed in centuries. Obi-Wan was prideful and wound up causing untold suffering. To be honest, Obi-Wan was a terrible Jedi in that respect. His padawan freakin' turned to the Dark Side, but that's makes his story all the more incredible. From the moment he swallows on tatooine and begins telling Luke his story, you know he's failed in some serious way, and that he's going to do his best to make up for it. The "real" Obi-Wan is there in Episode 4. Episode 1-3 is just some mock-up so you can see how all Obi-Wan's skill didn't amount to a hill of beans when it came to what was important: training Anakin. And again, the Consular story had none of that .You're just some prodigy with these untold powers that allow you to "shield" 5-6 Jedi and still whip ass. Yeah, that's cool, mind you, but it's not compelling.So anyway, I stand by my point that the Consular story is weak, and is only marginally based on someone like Obi-Wan (who was really more of a Knight anyway). Act 2 was Obi-Wan in the flesh, true. Acts 1 & 3? Nah. I'm glad DS made it more interesting. As for LS, by the time I shielded errant Jedi #5, I was ready to be done with it. Parkanas redeemed it somewhat, but it was still a cheap way out. BH & Trooper have shown me that BW CAN do a good story. Why they didn't for Consular is something I'm unsure of. Maybe the writer started the trilogy for the first time from Episode I (such a terrible, terrible thing to do to someone, George). PS I guess I should add that JC isn't a bad story. That would be unfair. It just pales in comparison to the others, and I think that's sad. The stories should be gripping no matter what options you choose if the MMO is going to be billed as story-driven. BW just dropped the ball with LS on Consular imo.
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Post by pandalishus on Feb 19, 2012 20:23:24 GMT -5
Found this on the forums and it sums my sentiments up nicely: "I found Chapter 1 to be dull for the Consular. No intrigue or interesting decisions beyond save/kill each Master. The big reveal as to who Vivicar is was very obvious straight from the start."
And here's a comment from someone who doesn't know SW well: "Maybe that's why I found it a little dull. I like stars wars well enough, I mean - I'm here playing, but I was never what you call a fan. I saw the movies. I guess learning a whole ton of jedi lore didn't exactly appeal to me personally and meeting a bunch of popular characters from sources that I wasn't familiar with didn't move me.
But it does seem perfectly suited for that type of person, the one who knows all the lore and played all the games and read the books, and I think that's really how it should be. It should appeal to the real fans first."
(That last paragraph makes me sad)
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sazza676
Bogun
SWTOR
I are strong with force
Posts: 9
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Post by sazza676 on Feb 19, 2012 22:01:19 GMT -5
Cant we all just get along!
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Post by pandalishus on Feb 20, 2012 10:29:17 GMT -5
lol.
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MeesterJamus
Goblin
SWTOR
@FutbolDude21586
Posts: 629
Steam ID: FutbolDude21586
Xbox GamerTag: FutbolDude21586
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Post by MeesterJamus on Feb 20, 2012 12:43:55 GMT -5
No. No we cannot. Can't you tell that we all hate each other here?
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Zeli
Flesh Jelly
Posts: 7,978
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Post by Zeli on Feb 20, 2012 15:27:31 GMT -5
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Post by pandalishus on Feb 20, 2012 15:59:21 GMT -5
Hahahaha.
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Dachartach
Spell Weaver
Aionic SWTOR Reliant
AHHH HAHH HAHH! I WAS BO'N AN' RAISED IN A BRIAR PATCH!
Posts: 921
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Post by Dachartach on Mar 30, 2012 17:07:19 GMT -5
I've been trying to gear up my gunslinger a bit, but i eventually want to run an agent, maybe an operative healer this time to see how it goes. Named him Ctharley after my WoW priest, he's in there now, and i may even start playing him sometime. So is that were all the guild went? Imperial side?
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Post by pandalishus on Mar 30, 2012 19:02:18 GMT -5
Imperial Mercenary Corps. Look 'em up. They're the Imp version of our Ally guild, Republic Mercy Corps.
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Qhoren
Troll Hunter
Warrior SWTOR Reliant
Posts: 1,471
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Post by Qhoren on Mar 30, 2012 20:06:45 GMT -5
To be honest, there aren't many playing consistently on either side.
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Post by destroid on Apr 5, 2012 8:56:13 GMT -5
I'm planning to stick with leveling my Guardian (42) before heading over to try an agent or bounty hunter. Of course, it depends on how much I can get through before 5/15. But you guys are making me want to try bounty hunter. But... I also just got DA: Origins Ultimate edition, and am starting another play through of that. $10 on Amazon right now! Too good to pass up. Might not make it all the way through that either. I'm mainly interested in checking out the DLC.
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