Missions in mmo's are a bad thing, I think

[Winin]

I've played a lot of games and I'm beta testing a few now, and I've come to the conclusion that missions are a bad thing. Long-term quests like in EQ and DAoC were good, but the quick missions like in WoW seem to have taken over. Gameplay seems to be: go to a new zone. Collect all the missions. Kill stuff in different parts of the zone, return to mission giver, repeat. There is no more hanging out at Oasis killing crocs and orcs with a group. Mostly people solo the missions, because they can, and it is hard to find a group willing to stick together to do everyone's missions. That is usually because everyone is on different missions or different stages.

I used to like soloable missions, because it meant I could play for 30 min. I grouped with CoT when I wanted to group. No problem.

But now that I'm playing some betas with no pre-existing friends, I find myself going 100% solo missions. No grouping. No dungeon crawling for the fun of it. No camping in and area and enjoying good fights. Now I just run, get missions, run and do them, run back, etc. The whole game feels rushed. I don't talk in ooc because I'm too busy. Also, I'm running between areas, so the area chat keeps changing. Hard to have a conversation.

I hated camps in EQ, but now I miss them. A bunch of folks in one area for an hour with lots of down time meant lots of chance to chat and get to know the people in the group and in the ooc.

I dunno. What do you guys think? Is the grass just greener? Am I growing weary of MMO's? Do I wish I had more time to play, so I wasn't stuck doing soloable content in small chunks?

--Winin

[Jaconis]

I honestly thought that grouping was the best part of EQ and any mmo out there. I thoroughly enjoyed getting a group together and spending a couple hours camping a spot in a zone. EQ was game where you pretty much had to group. Sure you couldn't just log on and solo much... well you could I used to do it on my shaman all the time.. but it's not the same.

Some people say that EQ wasn't meant for your average gamer and you had to be hardcore. Well, I have to agree it did take up a considerable amount of time. But, like winin said, it was just so much better. You got to know people and you actually had to be good and care about your group or you a)were booted from the group or b) your whole group wipes and you spend the next hour corpse running.

But hey.. l enjoyed it that way much better then any other mmo i've played.

[Zeli]

I agree that the faster pace and soloability of newer mmorpgs does take something away from the social aspect of the game. But I don't know if people would be interested in a game with so much downtime and forced grouping.

This reminds me of old DAoC crafting. It was mindnumbing and you had to go to Camelot or to certain areas to do it. Once they allowed people to have their own crafting tables in their houses, Camelot crafting area's were a ghost town. Lots of crafters complained about the loss of community they had. Since they were stuck there for hours and hours, they talked.

In an effort to make mmorpgs more fun, they've accidentally taken out the main part that really made the game. They have to find a way to keep the game going, but still make people matter to each other.

[GrilledCheese28 (aka Aruth)]

You are absolutely right, Winin & Jaconis.

Gone are the days of logging in, finding your friends, and then staking out a camp all session long....be it the Bastion of Thunder, Crypt of Decay, Fortress of Zek, or even the areas of Sebilis in the younger days. Heck, before Planes of Power, it could take up to 30 mins to get the whole group together, without teleports.

Grouping with "modern" mmorpg's has turned into...

"So does everyone have x quest? no? Ok well we'll run over to the villiage and you can pick up x quest. Oh, and talk to the chick at the shop and get y and z quests too, we'll do them on the way."

Then you click through the quest dialogue quickly, not really reading it, because you don't want to slow the rest of the group down...just skim for '20 orc penises' or whatever you need to collect, and get back to running with the pack. You plow through your penii together in way shorter of a time than the developers probably intended. You don't even need to actually count, because your quest log keeps track of all the mundane details. Or with even newer games, ya get a big old message across the middle of your HUD, "You have completed 'Schlongs for the Sultan'!". Then you just point your little arrow on the mini map at the newly lit dot that is your quest reward giver. Press button, get food pellet. Repeat.

With EQ, you had quests for days, even months (Veeshan's Peak key, anyone??)

I'm tired of that...but thats not even what bothers me most. What I *really* miss is group strategy. EQ required it! You had a specific role to fill in your group, and in the zones I played in, if you failed at your role, then your group probably died. You had to plan your pulls, had to have a plan if an add joined in, etc etc.
DAOC had the linked aggro code, and that started to take away the need for strategy. TOA started to bring back the need for strategy with their ML trials, and I was digging it, but lots of people didn't like that aspect. WOW almost completely eliminated it, except in the higher end instances, and boss encounters. Doing instances was the most entertaining part of WOW for me. The non-instance soloing was strictly to level up for them.

I haven't seen a game on the horizon yet that is going to "fix" this for me, but I would bet that the masses probably don't want this aspect "fixed". And there is nothing wrong with that...if thats how they like to play.

[Winin]

Very well put, Aruth, on all accounts. That rushing to finish quest goals is exactly what I don't like. I hadn't thought about the teamplay aspects of grouping, though.

I loved the co-op play. I loved doing crowd control most of all, but pulling was fun too. I remember how disappointed I was in groups in Camelot because someone would pull, each tank would take a monster and my role was useless. Or, I should say, not necessary.

Some of my best times were in my regular groups as we figured out how to tackle a dungeon. Dying, trying something different. Wondering if we'd be able take on something. I loved that sense of accomplishment much more than gaining levels or gear.

Good points, Jaconis and Zeli. I wonder if there would be a way to get that sense of accomplishment back, maybe in a new way, e.g. like the camelot crafting forcing folks in an area where they socialize.

It would probably require a system where you could know many skills, but you had to select a subset to use in a dungeon or challenge. Make the adventuring part more puzzle-like in a way.

[GrilledCheese28 (aka Aruth)]

I re-read what I had written, and I think it sounds bitter. I'm not really bitter, just disappointed and growing increasingly bored with the mmorpg trends.

EQ was king of its time, but it's time has passed.

[Winin]

The other problem easy solo leveling caused or, at least, exacerbated, is level disparity. It seems I have a harder and harder time keeping up with people. I hardly ever group with people twice because they rapidly outpace me. That means I don't get any chance to build up new friendships.

[Macaubre]

You'll have to understand that what made WoW so popular and made it a success was that, the appeal to the casual gamers. One thing that I absolutely hated in FFXI was the grind aspect of the game. The need to camp out an area for 5-10 levels to grind mobs after mobs. Killing the same crab over and over again. Community or not, that was mindnumbing to the point of being revolting.

I understand that the concept of "camping" a spot came from EverQuest (I experienced it in the dumbed down EverQuest Online Adventures on the PS2) where you'd get 4-5 other people and go to a XP camp and play for like 3-4 hours straight killing the respawning mobs over and over again.

Quest or no quest, that was a pathetic (and hopefully dead by now) way of playing a MMO game.

One reason why you had to do these in those game was the only way to achieve XP was thru mob grinding. Quests were far and between and the XP rewards from them was non-existent (on FFXI, you didn't get any!) so the only way to advance your character was to get a group and grind away.

No soloability meant that noone could casually play and level up.

[Wrasse]

I don't have time to add too much but...

I did love EQ...moreso the class I played (Enchanter) than anything but I hated the fact that I was necessary for certain areas of the game...as were other classes.

I also hate the big-quest-HUB-don't-read-jack-go-kill-X-of-Y quests in WoW.

I'd love to see:

a.) Quests spread out about vast zones (like EQs vast zones) - and don't skimp on the height of things...I used to love the forests in EQ due to the height of the environmental models...made you feel more isolated. Give us more variety in quests and maybe put more quests in instances that require you to work as a group to complete or actually require you to work out some puzzle or something other than just another kill quest.

b.) Classes that can change their spec before adventuring (think WoW talents but a step further and no cost to change...but maybe a cooldown or something to limit it...you can't change while out adventuring basically)...make it part of the strategy. Allow a priest to DPS if need be or go more hybrid healer or straight out healer depending on what the instance requires or the party lacks so you can better mix and match groups without leaving anyone out or having to wait forever for that one enchanter (let's say) to show up.

c.) Have instances with tough fights from the get go...instances in WoW are too easy at first...but then too difficult at times (not difficult per say but more "have to die a few times to even understand how to beat certain bosses even if you play your character perfectly because of some crazy event that occurs when the boss hits 25% health or something that you couldn't possibly expect") - or just PvP like in WAR where you work in groups. This leads to better community anyway...the WoW community is in shambles because no one cares about anyone but themselves. You can level up alone and, when forced to group at the end-game, usually end up sucking balls because you have no idea how to play in a group or think about anything other than yourself...don't get me started on how WoW appeals to some of the darker sides of humanity.

d.) Don't make items so damn important...WoW bugs me to no end when it comes to this. Items are nice and all but that's all WoW is about in the end-game. People get greedy...rude...annoying...people no longer play the game for the people but more for the next item they want. They won't run certain instances...they won't help others...they'll break guild ties...etc. Brings out the worst in people...but the positive is I figure out who are my friends and whom I want to continue gaming with.

OK, I rambled...and I'm not spell checking or looking it over if to see if I made any sense...hehe...gotta run.

[GrilledCheese28 (aka Aruth)]

I used to love the forests in EQ due to the height of the environmental models...made you feel more isolated.

Raise your hand if you've ever fallen to your death while visiting Kelethin!

/raise

[Wrasse]

LOL...Yea, I believe I have too...and I always got a chuckle out of any bodies around the lift.

[Macaubre]

LOL...Yea, I believe I have too...and I always got a chuckle out of any bodies around the lift.

I guess there's something similar now in Shattrath in Outland in WoW when you get to the lift from Aldor to main level. The step, is, unlike the step from Scryers to main level deadly if you jump off it. There's a lot of bones lying around there because of it.

[Jaconis]

Hahah I hated kelethin never went there... was a barb shaman.

But god damn velks labryinth. I used to slide off the damn ice right at the top every freaking time.

[GrilledCheese28 (aka Aruth)]

Hahah I hated kelethin never went there... was a barb shaman.

hah!

"Shit, another barb got stuck in the bank entrance."

[Winin]

I guess you have to fine tune the balance between xp gain / kill and # of unique fights / area. I'd like each fight to be a challenge, and have less fighting. PnP D&D was like that. Games seem to have devolved this way:

-Complaints of fights taking too long and too much downtime between fights.
-Fights got easier so you could solo.
-XP tuned so you had to have lots of fights to keep people from leveling too fast.
-People complain of grinding the same thing over and over (easy fights = no strategy required, so each fight is the same)
-Simple missions added to increase the XP/time without increasing the XP/kill.
-Leveling is fast and mind-numbingly boring.

My ideal would be:
-Tough fights, but lots of XP per fight.
-Respawns would be timed and randomized to encourage moving around and fighting a variety of mobs.
-Quests would be long railroad quests all telling a story. Sorta like the main quests in Lord of the Rings Online. Each story would span multiple zones, and there could be multiple stories to follow at once (but not so many to be overwhelming).

That would give a reason to quest (experience the story) and a reason to fight (the fights are interesting). Also, the standard quests could have real meaning (fed ex quest, collection quest, kill quest, etc. to progress the story, not as a thin excuse to give out XP).

Re: tall zones, I loved sneaking through Lesser Feydark and that one zone that turned evil at night. There were rarely people there, and the tree trunks extended up as far as you could see. Odus was like that too. Made it feel really isolated.

Re: classes changing spec, EQ had this for casters. You could put as many spells in your spellbook as you wanted, but you could only have 8 memorized. You had to decide before a battle how much offense or defense you wanted. It made the game more tactical, and it made having multiples of the same class ok. Guild Wars is similar, but I can't get into the gameplay for whatever reason.